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Work/Life Balance in a Clinical Psych program

• Thread starter sesileet
• Start date Aug 2, 2017
• Tags clinical psych
• Aug 2, 2017

BuckeyePsych

Full member.

sesileet said: I am interested in pursuing a doctorate in clinical psychology (Phd or Psyd) and wanted to find out from those currently in a program or those who have graduated what the work/life balance looks like during the program? On average, how much time do you have per week to spend time with family/friends or engage in activities outside of classes/studying/practicum? And how much sleep do you tend to get on average? How does that compare from year to year in the program? I am thinking very seriously about pursuing a doctorate in clinical psych but have a partner and two young children. My only hesitation about proceeding with the application process at this point is my concern about not being able to spend meaningful time with my family and missing out on the next 5-7 years of my children's lives. I have a previous masters degree so I am familiar with the demands of graduate school but the stories I have been hearing about clinical psych doctorate programs seem to go above and beyond what I am used to- it is giving me pause. Thoughts? Click to expand...

singasongofjoy

• Aug 3, 2017

It will indeed vary by program- and within programs, may vary significantly among advisers. There were folks in my lab who had kids, but they had partners who didn't work or had very flexible work schedules (not sure how they swung it financially- either pre-school savings, or loans). My adviser was certainly much more time-demanding than most plus really pushed students to be ready to apply for internship 4th year. I felt I could barely manage having pets, and work/life balance was interesting... had to really think outside the box to combine social time with other obligations. However, when I got to internship I (and my other lab mates)after talking with the other interns I realized that the experience was on the far end of the bell-curve (and work/life balance during internship was, for me, more manageable than any other job I've ever had; I hardly knew what to do with myself when I was regularly heading home at 5:45pm). So programs really vary. It will be more manageable if you're willing to stretch out the time you're on campus to 5 or 6 years rather than trying to be ready for internship in 4 years. It will probably be a good bit more than the demands of the average master's program, but you're really going to have to find out from students during interviews about the culture of the program and adviser-- and how flexible you are able to be with scheduling your hours (how much flexibility do you have over scheduling your own clients, practicum/TA/research lab hours, working from home vs being on campus, etc). Also, you'll learn along the way what you really have to say yes to, and what opportunities/expectations are more optional.  

foreverbull

Psychologist.

I came from counseling psychology (scientist-practitioner), but I don't imagine it was that far off of clinical, although most counseling students didn't have assistantships in research labs. It looked something like this: Per Week: ~20 hours practicum ~20 hours assistantship ~10 hours course attendance (avg. 3 classes per semester) ~10-20 hours coursework/research (not including commute time) So my average weeks were anywhere from 60-70 hours, sometimes up to 80 in a very busy week, sometimes less. Near the end, I had less coursework to focus on dissertation and internship apps. Generally, I devoted Sunday to coursework/research and gave myself Saturdays to rest/socialize. Depending on what you do for your assistantship, you may be lucky enough to have some downtime to squeeze in some course reading, or you may not. There will be downtimes between semesters when you can relax more and take a break, so your time commitment will vary greatly by courses, practicum, and research requirements at any given moment. At my practica, we didn't counsel over the summer semesters, but it will vary by program and practicum site. As singasongofjoy says, really get a sense of time demands and work/life balance from current students (you can ask if they do classes and/or practicum over the summer, etc.). Graduate programs are harder for folks with small children, but I knew people who got through it, although their partners had to do more of the childcare. You simply won't be home much of the time. A friend of mine spent a lot of time doing homework at the library so that when she was home, she was present and spending time with her family. It's doable, but it will be harder while you're in it, for sure. It is a sacrifice, so you have to make sure it's going to be worth it for you and your family in the long run.  

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Stanford University School of Medicine blog

Is becoming a physician-scientist worth sacrificing work-life balance?

Around Thanksgiving, the ceiling light that illuminates most of my apartment burned out.

I still haven't replaced it. Instead, I use the flashlight app on my phone to get dressed every morning; and I'm constantly tripping over my shoes, backpack and other miscellaneous, floor-dwelling items whenever I'm home. All in all, it's not a particularly dignified scenario.

Changing light bulbs isn't hard. The problem is that this particular light bulb is encased in a ceiling fixture that is incredibly difficult to open. Over the past three months, my building's maintenance staff and I have tried -- unsuccessfully -- to change the bulb in at least four different ways. Eventually, I just kind of gave up.

That process -- scheduling appointments with maintenance during regular hours, following up via phone or email, and reshuffling my research, coursework and other MD/PhD training responsibilities -- made something as simple as changing a light bulb feel like a "project." I worried that this project was whittling too much time away from my perpetually-impacted backlog of to-dos, something that every physician-scientist-in-training carries with them in some form or another. So, I remain in the dark.

This light bulb debacle made me think of a perspective piece (co-authored by Stanford Medicine's own PJ Utz , MD, and Brian Kobilka , MD) that was published in the New England Journal of Medicine a few months ago. In it, the authors note that the proportion of physician-scientists in the medical workforce today is less than a third of what it was in the 1980s. Furthermore, they make the case that this is mainly a result of physician-scientist trainees discontinuing their pursuit of increasingly competitive, seemingly "unattainable" careers that combine research and clinical care.

As someone currently in the middle of my own physician-scientist training, I can admit that sometimes the idea of juggling research, clinical responsibilities and just being a person seems close to impossible in the long-term.

In my life as an MD/PhD student, I'm responsible for a miniature version of the balancing act that most academic physician-scientists navigate every day. I don't run my own lab, but I do manage several scientific projects for my PhD research -- including applying for grants, making sense of data and writing papers for publication.

Likewise, I'm not a practicing physician yet, but I stay involved with patients through volunteer work and some nonprofit health care advocacy . Here and there, I also do a bit of teaching, taking classes and other miscellaneous projects for the hospital and school of medicine.

Combined, all of this amounts to about 80 hours per week that I spend on career-related stuff. By my estimates, this is about average for MD/PhD students, and a bit less than average for fully-trained physician-scientists, whose patient-related commitments are much larger than mine.

I think the reason that I -- and so many others on the physician-scientist path -- work so much is simple: clinical and biomedical research problems are some of the most interesting and important in all of science, so working to solve them generates an incredible sense of purpose.

But I've also recently realized that, because that sense of purpose is so important to me, I've kind of let it swallow up other, equally-important areas of my life. Sure, I do some of the coolest work in the world, but I also don't date, exercise or travel as much as I'd like to. I often flake out on social time with friends to make another "really important deadline" or because, on a trainee's income, my leisure budget is pretty limited. And, of course, the constant crunch on my time means that basic life-management tasks -- like replacing light bulbs -- can live on my to-do list for weeks or even months at a time.

Now more than ever, I've started to feel the tension between the intense commitment required to follow my physician-scientist dreams and my fear that doing so will seriously encroach on my physical, emotional and interpersonal well-being. For the first time, I'm doubting my preparedness for the path ahead.

In my last conversation with my apartment's maintenance staff, they explained that the light in my room is probably jammed shut, which means that the only option left for changing the bulb is to break it open.

There's something appealing about the brute-force approach to any problem, but I'm not sure that an equally simple solution exists for the flickering confidence I've started to feel about the future.

For now, the light in my apartment still isn't on. But hopefully, it will be soon.

Stanford Medicine Unplugged is a forum for students to chronicle their experiences in medical school. The student-penned entries appear on Scope once a week during the academic year; the entire blog series can be found in the Stanford Medicine Unplugged  category . 

Tim Keyes is an MD/PhD student in Stanford's Medical Scientist Training Program. He likes microglia, snowmobiles, pop music written for teenage girls, and going on terrible first dates.   Follow him on Twitter at @timothykeyes

Photo by Rodion Kutsaev

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Can I keep my full-time job while I pursue a PhD in Psychology, and if so, for how long?

I have read this question posed a lot for math and science doctoral degree , but my question pertains to pursuing a social sciences doctoral degree . I'm currently working as a Management Analyst in local government. I've decided to pursue a PhD in Psychology at a nearby university. Being accepted is a big "if", but if I were accepted, my goal would be to retain my position in government as long as possible and find ways to connect my research to social behaviors pertaining to civic engagement and public health. I'm also in my early 30s, which means I'll be doing this during the decade when most people are settling into their careers. The eventual goal is to pivot to academia and pursue a career in lecturing and research.

My hope is that the overlap would ease the tension between holding down a relatively demanding, full-time job and would benefit my research. With that said, I'm wondering if I need a reality check here. Has anyone else endeavored anything like this? How difficult is it to balance both?

• research-process
• work-life-balance

• 15 A PhD is (usually) the equivalent of a full time job (the majority of PhD students I know work at least 40 hours a week). Most PhDs are relatively demanding. Only you can decide if you have the time and energy to keep two relatively demanding full time jobs on the go. –  astronat supports the strike Commented May 19, 2020 at 17:00
• 2 Is your employer willing to somehow support your education and research goals? –  Anyon Commented May 19, 2020 at 17:23
• 4 I have heard of those who go to work (full time) when all that remains for their Ph.D. is the writing of the thesis. They may take many years to finish the writing, or even never finish. –  GEdgar Commented May 19, 2020 at 17:29
• 2 A better use of your time is to use your paying job to save up a nest egg to supplement a PhD stipend. Maybe knock out some classes if you can (state and local employees often get tuition benefits at state universities) –  Azor Ahai -him- Commented May 19, 2020 at 17:35
• 2 @PhilipSchiff " The eventual goal is to pivot to academia, and pursue a career in lecturing and research " OP is considering this with a goal in mind of an academic career for which a PhD is required. –  Bryan Krause ♦ Commented May 20, 2020 at 23:33

5 Answers 5

I don't want to repeat the points made in other good answers.

If you want some work-life-balance , keeping the full-time job and doing a PhD at the same time is impossible. In most cases, having a consistent work-life-balance while doing a PhD alone is very hard.

• 4 Nice. But even with no overlap it ain't always easy. –  Buffy Commented May 19, 2020 at 22:21
• 4 @Buffy totally agree. I am trying to do it now with only a full-time job and fail spectacularly. –  Anton Menshov Commented May 19, 2020 at 22:49
• 2 If OP wants to defend a thesis that is good enough to support a career in academia, the center becomes "five-legged unicorn-rare". –  henning no longer feeds AI Commented May 23, 2020 at 8:51

You can consider doing a part-time PhD that can be completed any time between 4 and 7 years (actual times may vary). This is an option provided for people with external responsibilities, such as having a full-time job. It is certainly feasible, but it includes the supervisor and the department agreeing. Also, the situation around fees and funding needs to be clarified, as the department may hesitate to provide funding to a part-time student with a full-time job and allocate it instead to a full-time PhD student with no other means. You might still be able to secure paid work (teaching or marking), a stipend/ bursary or for fees to be waived or covered by something else. This, of course is country and department specific. Technically, combining a full-time job and a part-time PhD is doable.

That said, even a part-time PhD requires a significant time commitment provided continuously, or at least in specific productive periods doing the PhD. In brief, research is a strange beast that cares little for your personal circumstances and cannot be put easily in boxes or timetables. It requires clarity of thought, calmness, time (often time to waste!) and personal commitment, which the conditions might not provide despite your best efforts. Even if the goal is not an academic career but simply completing a PhD, the demands are still high and you need to consider how to balance work, further responsibilities (social life, family, caring etc) and possible changes in the future (e.g. moving away, starting a family). I dare compare it to someone like a fencing or chess champion: a high level athlete, with all the dedication that demands, who cannot support oneself from that activity and needs to put as much time and effort in a full-time job. It is not a leisure hobby or a past-time activity. I do not know how you imagine research to be, and everyone has a different story according to their field, personality and circumstances. The more stories you hear, the better.

The advice I give to anyone is to think very carefully about the reasons for starting a PhD. Such a commitment is not undertaken because "there is nothing else to do", "I want to be a student again/more", "all my friends have one" or "I want to be a Doctor". It is a very demanding, long endeavour, unlike most experiences and requires a clear, persistent and strong personal desire and motive. I am not trying to dissuade or indirectly criticise you, and have no reason to doubt your composure, personality or abilities. I am only emphasising the need for careful thought, because quite early on, and after the first experience, you will need to decide what level of quality you will be able/ willing to reach in your work. The level of quality greatly depends on what I discussed earlier, so it becomes a virtuous or vicious cycle. At the end of the day, nobody knows your conditions better than yourself and you are the ultimate judge on how to combine the two.

• 2 4-7 years part-time would make sense in a system where a PhD is usually completed in 2-3 years. In the US, a full-time PhD in psychology would be expected to take 5 years. (not sure where OP is) –  Bryan Krause ♦ Commented May 20, 2020 at 23:10
• I am not familiar with a country where the expected time for PhD completion is 2 years. Most commonly it is 3 (also the time of a full-time studentship), with writing up granting an extra year. A good approximation for a part-time PhD is double the time of a full-time PhD, and in that context 4 means a brief extension over the standard full-time period. –  user117109 Commented May 20, 2020 at 23:16
• 1 Ok; in the US it would definitely not be 3 years, though, so if OP is in the US they would need to substantially adjust their expectations. –  Bryan Krause ♦ Commented May 20, 2020 at 23:32

As you have already learned, it is very difficult. Normally a doctoral program (in the US, where I assume you are) is a full time "job", but for most of the students that includes a fair amount of work as a TA to avoid tuition charges and provide a meager living. If you already have an established lifestyle and a family to support then giving up your job for this probably isn't feasible.

I'm assuming the US, here. Normally you start a doctoral program with coursework leading to comprehensive qualifying exams, followed by research leading to a dissertation. Normally universities impose a time limit on your studies, perhaps seven or so years. But things vary. If you already have a psychology masters it could be a bit different. Possibly some other masters would make a difference. Most students will have an undergraduate degree in psychology or a closely related field so the coursework is somewhat advanced. If you don't have that, it might be harder, both to get into a program and to fill in any gaps in your background.

But supposing that tuition is not a problem for you and your current job pays you well, then it might be possible under, perhaps, a modified study plan provided that you don't need to work as a TA (caveat below). Since you say it is a nearby university, you should find a way to communicate with them. In person is best, but hard now with the pandemic. Ask whether it is possible to start out with a lighter than normal course load so as to see how you can manage it. You have to get prepared for comps and you have to take care about any time constraints.

Thus, it might be possible to manage it up to the point where you start serious dissertation research. After that it may be less feasible to do both, but you will also have a better sends then of the tradeoffs and sacrifices you need to make.

But the best advice would come from the psychology faculty of the institution you would like to study at. They will point out any constraints and possible pitfalls.

Note, however, that for some programs, serving as a TA is a requirement for the degree, it being considered an important aspect of the education. In such a program you would almost certainly have something like two full time jobs.

As other commentators have stated, a full-time PhD candidate is usually expected to study full-time hours, which is nominally 36-40 hours a week, but it often turns out to be longer. Most universities impose rules on their PhD candidates that require approval from the Department for the candidate to take an outside job for more than some minimum number of hours per week. For example, when I did my PhD candidature, the rules said that I needed Department approval if I wanted to work more than 10 hours per week in an outside job. If I had asked to work a full-time job during my candidature, I am quite certain they would not have approved it.

As with all university administration matters, you will need to look up the rules at your particular institution. Your university will have a set of written rules for the PhD candidature, and that will tell you if there is any formal restriction on outside work during the candidature. Ordinarily, if a candidate is working a full-time job, they will be expected to drop their candidature back to a part-time load. This is desirable both for the university and for the sanity of the candidate.

I was in a somewhat similar situation, getting accepted to a U.S. PhD-program in the social sciences while being a senior analyst at a local government. I arranged for a reduced schedule for the first few years while doing coursework, taking exams, and ultimately the orals. It worked reasonably well, but it came with a cost both in terms of my "old" job where I was less available, and also as far as being less focused on my new program, forming networks, being part of group research projects, etc.

After my orals, I quickly moved back to full time, which made it at least a challenge to hit a good and persistent research stride. It took longer to finish, I was more scattered in most endeavors--including my young and growing family, and certainly, while my professional and academic interests overlapped substantially, I didn't have the same research output as some of my more academically focused peers had.

Which brings me to my final point about your motivation. I kept my leg in the professional world and didn't jump fully into the academic one, and am now back in a regional agency, which suits me quite well, but I often wonder how different my academic experience would have been if I had jumped in 100 percent and had gone the more traditional route. You say you want to pivot to academia--that seems to me to be an indication that you may start out by keeping your job, but be prepared to choose if things get tricky, and get a more focused academic experience.

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• CAREER FEATURE
• 13 November 2019

PhDs: the tortuous truth

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Chris Woolston is a freelance writer in Billings, Montana.

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Getting a PhD is never easy, but it’s fair to say that Marina Kovačević had it especially hard. A third-year chemistry student at the University of Novi Sad in Serbia, she started her PhD programme with no funding, which forced her to get side jobs bartending and waitressing. When a funded position came up in another laboratory two years later, she made an abrupt switch from medicinal chemistry to computational chemistry. With the additional side jobs, long hours in the lab, and the total overhaul of her research and area of focus, Kovačević epitomizes the overworked, overextended PhD student with an uncertain future.

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